| Author |
Message |
< Erlyweb mailing list ~ When is this stuff going to be useful/usable in a production |
| steved |
 Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:09 pm |
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User
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 78
|
Given a task to implement a quick web service, I thought I'd try
erlang/yaws/erlyweb to build it. Reading the fluff, it seems this
should be "easy" and "fast" to do.
1) Yaws didn't install right on the development platform available
(windows). I read the yaws documentation completely but in the end I
had to piece it together from digging around in the yaws code to
understand the structure of yaws to get a decent install.
(time wasted: approx 3 hours)
2) Again, there wasn't *any* correct documentation to explain how to
connect to the required database (postgres) but fortunately I found
this blog post... http://cdrinpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/configuring-erlyweb-with-postgres/
(time wasted: approx 2 hours)
3) With everything supposedly running correctly, I finally got the
error message below (returned from postgres). Again scanning at code
level I found that this is a problem not with the driver (psql) nor
erlyweb but in the erlydb code itself (i.e. erlsql -- the error
message below should be more than sufficient to find/fix the problem
if you have the time/interest). Short of rewriting the platform code
(!!not acceptable - we cannot be expected to maintain a branch of the
erlang code!!), or waiting for an official fix release (there is
little doubt this would be outside our schedule) this ended up as a
project blocker.
(time wasted: approx 2-3 hours)
Result: Having wasted essentially a DAY on this, I gave up and used
Tomcat instead.
LESSON LEARNED: Given that achieving even the simplest project runs
into all sorts of delays, It should be OBVIOUS why erlang/erlyweb is
not hot news for web developers/web development!!!
The final straw was....
ERROR erlang code crashed:
File: appmod:0
Reason: {function_clause,
[{lists,foldl,
[#Fun<erlydb_psql.2.79238577>,[],
{sql_error,"42601",
"Rbase_yyparse L5868 Fgram.y HUse separate LIMIT
and OFFSET clauses. MLIMIT #,# syntax is not supported"}]},
{erlydb_psql,get_select_result,2},
{erlydb_base,select,3},
{erlyweb_controller,list,3},
{erlyweb,ewc,2},
{erlyweb,handle_request,6},
{yaws_server,deliver_dyn_part,8},
{yaws_server,aloop,3}]}
Req: {http_request,'GET',
{abs_path,"/namelookup//agent/list/1"},
{1,1}}
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Sep 27, 2008 10:50 pm |
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Guest
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Quod licet Jovi non licet Bovi... 
Personally, I wasted a week of my life trying to do /anything/
at all with Rational Rose Realtime, and have failed several
times installing Eclipse (once due to some lock violation error
on a dual-core Vista machine). I've spent several days testing
various web development and groupware frameworks and
being stumped by missing perl libs, inconsistent installs,
version mismatches, etc.
I'm not trying to belittle your pain. It should be easier, but
in my experience, "production quality" tools in the mainstream
can often (not always, of course) be just as difficult, or much more
difficult, to get going with.
The problem is of course when there are well-known alternatives
that give less pain. That certainly lowers the tolerance threshold
for this kind of noise, but I would like to suggest that you prepare
yourself for some friction if you decide to try out a tool supported by
a very small community, and you choose an OS and a database
backend other than the preferred options (unix/mysql).
The ErlyWeb docs do state pretty clearly that only MySQL is
supported, so it shouldn't be too surprising that they don't
describe in detail how to get going with Postgres.
(http://erlyweb.org/doc/erlydb.html)
Also, ten seconds with google revealed the following info
about installing yaws on windows:
http://bloggablea.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/building-yaws-for-windows/
http://yaws.hyber.org/wiki/showOldPage.yaws?node=YawsAndWin32&index=1
http://groups.google.com/group/erlyweb/web/erlyweb-erlang-windows-installation?pli=1
BR,
Ulf W
2008/9/27 Steve <steven.charles.davis@gmail.com>:
>
> Given a task to implement a quick web service, I thought I'd try
> erlang/yaws/erlyweb to build it. Reading the fluff, it seems this
> should be "easy" and "fast" to do.
>
> 1) Yaws didn't install right on the development platform available
> (windows). I read the yaws documentation completely but in the end I
> had to piece it together from digging around in the yaws code to
> understand the structure of yaws to get a decent install.
> (time wasted: approx 3 hours)
>
> 2) Again, there wasn't *any* correct documentation to explain how to
> connect to the required database (postgres) but fortunately I found
> this blog post... http://cdrinpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/configuring-erlyweb-with-postgres/
> (time wasted: approx 2 hours)
>
> 3) With everything supposedly running correctly, I finally got the
> error message below (returned from postgres). Again scanning at code
> level I found that this is a problem not with the driver (psql) nor
> erlyweb but in the erlydb code itself (i.e. erlsql -- the error
> message below should be more than sufficient to find/fix the problem
> if you have the time/interest). Short of rewriting the platform code
> (!!not acceptable - we cannot be expected to maintain a branch of the
> erlang code!!), or waiting for an official fix release (there is
> little doubt this would be outside our schedule) this ended up as a
> project blocker.
> (time wasted: approx 2-3 hours)
>
> Result: Having wasted essentially a DAY on this, I gave up and used
> Tomcat instead.
>
> LESSON LEARNED: Given that achieving even the simplest project runs
> into all sorts of delays, It should be OBVIOUS why erlang/erlyweb is
> not hot news for web developers/web development!!!
>
> The final straw was....
>
> ERROR erlang code crashed:
> File: appmod:0
> Reason: {function_clause,
> [{lists,foldl,
> [#Fun<erlydb_psql.2.79238577>,[],
> {sql_error,"42601",
> "Rbase_yyparse L5868 Fgram.y HUse separate LIMIT
> and OFFSET clauses. MLIMIT #,# syntax is not supported"}]},
> {erlydb_psql,get_select_result,2},
> {erlydb_base,select,3},
> {erlyweb_controller,list,3},
> {erlyweb,ewc,2},
> {erlyweb,handle_request,6},
> {yaws_server,deliver_dyn_part,8},
> {yaws_server,aloop,3}]}
> Req: {http_request,'GET',
> {abs_path,"/namelookup//agent/list/1"},
> {1,1}}
>
>
> >
>
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 3:52 pm |
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Guest
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Thanks for the question and the reply. I think I need to state clearly
in the documentation that the psql driver is alpha quality. A few
people have run into problems with it but unfortunately I haven't
gotten any patches to fix it. I don't maintain it myself because I use
MySQL.
In general, though, I think ErlyWeb is great for fast development once
you get it running, and it's reasonably simple to get it running at
least with Unix/MySQL, which is what most people use. It's ironic,
though, because once of the reasons I was moved to Erlang was that I
spent like half a day trying to install Rails and got so frustrated I
just wanted to use something simpler.
Yariv
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Ulf Wiger <ulf.wiger@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Quod licet Jovi non licet Bovi...
>
> Personally, I wasted a week of my life trying to do /anything/
> at all with Rational Rose Realtime, and have failed several
> times installing Eclipse (once due to some lock violation error
> on a dual-core Vista machine). I've spent several days testing
> various web development and groupware frameworks and
> being stumped by missing perl libs, inconsistent installs,
> version mismatches, etc.
>
> I'm not trying to belittle your pain. It should be easier, but
> in my experience, "production quality" tools in the mainstream
> can often (not always, of course) be just as difficult, or much more
> difficult, to get going with.
>
> The problem is of course when there are well-known alternatives
> that give less pain. That certainly lowers the tolerance threshold
> for this kind of noise, but I would like to suggest that you prepare
> yourself for some friction if you decide to try out a tool supported by
> a very small community, and you choose an OS and a database
> backend other than the preferred options (unix/mysql).
>
> The ErlyWeb docs do state pretty clearly that only MySQL is
> supported, so it shouldn't be too surprising that they don't
> describe in detail how to get going with Postgres.
> (http://erlyweb.org/doc/erlydb.html)
>
> Also, ten seconds with google revealed the following info
> about installing yaws on windows:
>
> http://bloggablea.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/building-yaws-for-windows/
> http://yaws.hyber.org/wiki/showOldPage.yaws?node=YawsAndWin32&index=1
> http://groups.google.com/group/erlyweb/web/erlyweb-erlang-windows-installation?pli=1
>
> BR,
> Ulf W
>
> 2008/9/27 Steve <steven.charles.davis@gmail.com>:
>>
>> Given a task to implement a quick web service, I thought I'd try
>> erlang/yaws/erlyweb to build it. Reading the fluff, it seems this
>> should be "easy" and "fast" to do.
>>
>> 1) Yaws didn't install right on the development platform available
>> (windows). I read the yaws documentation completely but in the end I
>> had to piece it together from digging around in the yaws code to
>> understand the structure of yaws to get a decent install.
>> (time wasted: approx 3 hours)
>>
>> 2) Again, there wasn't *any* correct documentation to explain how to
>> connect to the required database (postgres) but fortunately I found
>> this blog post... http://cdrinpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/configuring-erlyweb-with-postgres/
>> (time wasted: approx 2 hours)
>>
>> 3) With everything supposedly running correctly, I finally got the
>> error message below (returned from postgres). Again scanning at code
>> level I found that this is a problem not with the driver (psql) nor
>> erlyweb but in the erlydb code itself (i.e. erlsql -- the error
>> message below should be more than sufficient to find/fix the problem
>> if you have the time/interest). Short of rewriting the platform code
>> (!!not acceptable - we cannot be expected to maintain a branch of the
>> erlang code!!), or waiting for an official fix release (there is
>> little doubt this would be outside our schedule) this ended up as a
>> project blocker.
>> (time wasted: approx 2-3 hours)
>>
>> Result: Having wasted essentially a DAY on this, I gave up and used
>> Tomcat instead.
>>
>> LESSON LEARNED: Given that achieving even the simplest project runs
>> into all sorts of delays, It should be OBVIOUS why erlang/erlyweb is
>> not hot news for web developers/web development!!!
>>
>> The final straw was....
>>
>> ERROR erlang code crashed:
>> File: appmod:0
>> Reason: {function_clause,
>> [{lists,foldl,
>> [#Fun<erlydb_psql.2.79238577>,[],
>> {sql_error,"42601",
>> "Rbase_yyparse L5868 Fgram.y HUse separate LIMIT
>> and OFFSET clauses. MLIMIT #,# syntax is not supported"}]},
>> {erlydb_psql,get_select_result,2},
>> {erlydb_base,select,3},
>> {erlyweb_controller,list,3},
>> {erlyweb,ewc,2},
>> {erlyweb,handle_request,6},
>> {yaws_server,deliver_dyn_part,8},
>> {yaws_server,aloop,3}]}
>> Req: {http_request,'GET',
>> {abs_path,"/namelookup//agent/list/1"},
>> {1,1}}
>>
>>
>> >
>>
>
> >
>
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| steved |
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 4:56 pm |
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User
Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 78
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Ulf: Yep, you successfully detected that I was ranting. I did notice
that postgres wasn't "officially" supported, but ploughed on
regardless and got burned.
Yariv: The issue isn't the psql driver, it's the erlsql.erl file at
line 311. LIMIT is not SQL-92 and the generated query is essentially
"MySQL only". Maybe you could consider how to "abstract" that
successfully (an abstraction layer that "abstracts" only one SQL
dialect doesn't really count as abstraction to my mind). Also the idea
that "...Unix/MySQL, which is what most people use." should read
"...most people use when given a choice". My experience is that "in
the wild" the most likely databases you'll be coding to are Oracle or
SQL Server and the most likely *development* platform (I'm talking
cross-sector here) you'll be given will be Windows (XP or Server
200x).
regards,
Steve
On Sep 28, 10:52 |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 6:56 pm |
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Guest
|
The beauty of open source software is that you're free (even
encouraged) to contribute to the areas you find weak.
You'll get two very different reactions from the community when you
say, "God this sucks why doesn't anything work" versus "God this sucks
why doesn't anything work, oh and here's a branch you can pull from
that fixes everything."
I guess I just find it funny. I don't know you or your FOSS project
history/karma, so don't take this as a personal jab, but the way you
just walked in to the list and shat on everything reminds me of those
annoying parenting counselors with the best-selling books who get
invited into a home to "help" a couple with their toddler. Yes, your
advice may be spot on, but dammit, the kid hates peas and loves
Spongebob, so quit calling me a bad parent because I've made
concessions on these two things!
Rails was a bit of a shithole for a long time (and some of you may
argue it still is), but it's people's patience with it that lead to
improvements and more widespread adoption. And there was a bit of "if
you think it's a shithole and don't want to contribute then feel free
to leave" going on, too.. because ultimately, someone tallying up the
hours "wasted" attempting to try out a *new piece of tech* is
generally doing nothing but blowing hot air.
/rant
Sent from the iRoad.
On Sep 28, 2008, at 9:56 AM, Steve <steven.charles.davis@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Ulf: Yep, you successfully detected that I was ranting. I did notice
> that postgres wasn't "officially" supported, but ploughed on
> regardless and got burned.
>
> Yariv: The issue isn't the psql driver, it's the erlsql.erl file at
> line 311. LIMIT is not SQL-92 and the generated query is essentially
> "MySQL only". Maybe you could consider how to "abstract" that
> successfully (an abstraction layer that "abstracts" only one SQL
> dialect doesn't really count as abstraction to my mind). Also the idea
> that "...Unix/MySQL, which is what most people use." should read
> "...most people use when given a choice". My experience is that "in
> the wild" the most likely databases you'll be coding to are Oracle or
> SQL Server and the most likely *development* platform (I'm talking
> cross-sector here) you'll be given will be Windows (XP or Server
> 200x).
>
> regards,
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Sep 28, 10:52 am, "Yariv Sadan" <yarivsa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks for the question and the reply. I think I need to state
>> clearly
>> in the documentation that the psql driver is alpha quality. A few
>> people have run into problems with it but unfortunately I haven't
>> gotten any patches to fix it. I don't maintain it myself because I
>> use
>> MySQL.
>>
>> In general, though, I think ErlyWeb is great for fast development
>> once
>> you get it running, and it's reasonably simple to get it running at
>> least with Unix/MySQL, which is what most people use. It's ironic,
>> though, because once of the reasons I was moved to Erlang was that I
>> spent like half a day trying to install Rails and got so frustrated I
>> just wanted to use something simpler.
>>
>> Yariv
>>
>> On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:49 PM, Ulf Wiger <ulf.wi...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Quod licet Jovi non licet Bovi...
>>
>>> Personally, I wasted a week of my life trying to do /anything/
>>> at all with Rational Rose Realtime, and have failed several
>>> times installing Eclipse (once due to some lock violation error
>>> on a dual-core Vista machine). I've spent several days testing
>>> various web development and groupware frameworks and
>>> being stumped by missing perl libs, inconsistent installs,
>>> version mismatches, etc.
>>
>>> I'm not trying to belittle your pain. It should be easier, but
>>> in my experience, "production quality" tools in the mainstream
>>> can often (not always, of course) be just as difficult, or much more
>>> difficult, to get going with.
>>
>>> The problem is of course when there are well-known alternatives
>>> that give less pain. That certainly lowers the tolerance threshold
>>> for this kind of noise, but I would like to suggest that you prepare
>>> yourself for some friction if you decide to try out a tool
>>> supported by
>>> a very small community, and you choose an OS and a database
>>> backend other than the preferred options (unix/mysql).
>>
>>> The ErlyWeb docs do state pretty clearly that only MySQL is
>>> supported, so it shouldn't be too surprising that they don't
>>> describe in detail how to get going with Postgres.
>>> (http://erlyweb.org/doc/erlydb.html)
>>
>>> Also, ten seconds with google revealed the following info
>>> about installing yaws on windows:
>>
>>> http://bloggablea.wordpress.com/2007/04/21/building-yaws-for-
>>> windows/
>>> http://yaws.hyber.org/wiki/showOldPage.yaws?
>>> node=YawsAndWin32&index=1
>>> http://groups.google.com/group/erlyweb/web/erlyweb-erlang-windows-ins
>>> ...
>>
>>> BR,
>>> Ulf W
>>
>>> 2008/9/27 Steve <steven.charles.da...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>>> Given a task to implement a quick web service, I thought I'd try
>>>> erlang/yaws/erlyweb to build it. Reading the fluff, it seems this
>>>> should be "easy" and "fast" to do.
>>
>>>> 1) Yaws didn't install right on the development platform available
>>>> (windows). I read the yaws documentation completely but in the
>>>> end I
>>>> had to piece it together from digging around in the yaws code to
>>>> understand the structure of yaws to get a decent install.
>>>> (time wasted: approx 3 hours)
>>
>>>> 2) Again, there wasn't *any* correct documentation to explain how
>>>> to
>>>> connect to the required database (postgres) but fortunately I found
>>>> this blog post...http://cdrinpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/09/
>>>> configuring-erlyweb-with-p...
>>>> (time wasted: approx 2 hours)
>>
>>>> 3) With everything supposedly running correctly, I finally got the
>>>> error message below (returned from postgres). Again scanning at
>>>> code
>>>> level I found that this is a problem not with the driver (psql) nor
>>>> erlyweb but in the erlydb code itself (i.e. erlsql -- the error
>>>> message below should be more than sufficient to find/fix the
>>>> problem
>>>> if you have the time/interest). Short of rewriting the platform
>>>> code
>>>> (!!not acceptable - we cannot be expected to maintain a branch of
>>>> the
>>>> erlang code!!), or waiting for an official fix release (there is
>>>> little doubt this would be outside our schedule) this ended up as a
>>>> project blocker.
>>>> (time wasted: approx 2-3 hours)
>>
>>>> Result: Having wasted essentially a DAY on this, I gave up and used
>>>> Tomcat instead.
>>
>>>> LESSON LEARNED: Given that achieving even the simplest project runs
>>>> into all sorts of delays, It should be OBVIOUS why erlang/erlyweb
>>>> is
>>>> not hot news for web developers/web development!!!
>>
>>>> The final straw was....
>>
>>>> ERROR erlang code crashed:
>>>> File: appmod:0
>>>> Reason: {function_clause,
>>>> [{lists,foldl,
>>>> [#Fun<erlydb_psql.2.79238577>,[],
>>>> {sql_error,"42601",
>>>> "Rbase_yyparse L5868 Fgram.y HUse separate
>>>> LIMIT
>>>> and OFFSET clauses. MLIMIT #,# syntax is not supported"}]},
>>>> {erlydb_psql,get_select_result,2},
>>>> {erlydb_base,select,3},
>>>> {erlyweb_controller,list,3},
>>>> {erlyweb,ewc,2},
>>>> {erlyweb,handle_request,6},
>>>> {yaws_server,deliver_dyn_part,8},
>>>> {yaws_server,aloop,3}]}
>>>> Req: {http_request,'GET',
>>>> {abs_path,"/namelookup//agent/list/1"},
>>>> {1,1}}
> >
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:10 pm |
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Guest
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On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 5:56 PM, Steve <steven.charles.davis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> dialect doesn't really count as abstraction to my mind). Also the idea
> that "...Unix/MySQL, which is what most people use." should read
> "...most people use when given a choice". My experience is that "in
> the wild" the most likely databases you'll be coding to are Oracle or
> SQL Server and the most likely *development* platform (I'm talking
> cross-sector here) you'll be given will be Windows (XP or Server
> 200x).
>
And yet you'd be allowed to use Erlang in such a (typical) corporate
environment?
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| steved |
| Posted: Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:01 pm |
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 78
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As Ulf pointed out and I admitted... I was frustrated and ranting.
However, I guess the real question was "when will this be usable...".
I have many projects and the underlying functional request/bug is non-
trivial. I only have the time to convince my "betters" to USE the
platform not develop the platform. I managed to sell the idea this
time that we should use Erlang/OTP/Yaws over Java/JEE but the next
time it's gonna be a lot harder.
regs,
Steve
On Sep 28, 1:56 |
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| steved |
| Posted: Tue Sep 30, 2008 12:02 am |
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Joined: 29 Apr 2008
Posts: 78
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BTW if you are a MySQL fan, you may be interested in why there's good
reasons to avoid it if you can - or at least be aware of the dangers
of that software wrt referential integrity/production development...
http://use.perl.org/~Smylers/journal/34246
On Sep 29, 6:00 |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:34 am |
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Guest
|
I personally think that Erlang will not be a great fit for web
applications without better string and RDBMS support. And I could
probably work around the DB stuff. String operations that are taken
for granted in other languages (plus efficient representations) are
frustratingly absent.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 12:00 AM, Steve <steven.charles.davis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> As Ulf pointed out and I admitted... I was frustrated and ranting.
>
> However, I guess the real question was "when will this be usable...".
> I have many projects and the underlying functional request/bug is non-
> trivial. I only have the time to convince my "betters" to USE the
> platform not develop the platform. I managed to sell the idea this
> time that we should use Erlang/OTP/Yaws over Java/JEE but the next
> time it's gonna be a lot harder.
>
> regs,
> Steve
>
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| steved |
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:35 am |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 6:29 pm |
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Guest
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On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:34 PM, Darren Hobbs wrote:
>
> I personally think that Erlang will not be a great fit for web
> applications without better string and RDBMS support. And I could
> probably work around the DB stuff. String operations that are taken
> for granted in other languages (plus efficient representations) are
> frustratingly absent.
I'm not quite sure to what you are referring to by "string
operations". I've been working with erlang/yaws/etc. for several
months now and I haven't found it to be a problem and 99% of the time
I've been able to get everything done without even touching the regex
modules. It's different, that's for sure, but I don't think erlang as
a whole is missing anything. At least, not for what I've been working
on.
As far as RDBMS support, I've been using mnesia almost exclusively so
I'm not able to comment on it's usefulness, but I feel compelled to
add that I think erlydb is one hell of a good start in this area.
Personally, I'm more thankful of what it does do than I lament what it
doesn't.
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:33 pm |
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Guest
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Same here. I think ErlyDB works great with MySQL at least, and with
not much work of work its psql support could also be brought up to
par. Strings have never been an issue for me with Erlang and I think
the whole "Erlang sucks for strings" it blown way out of proportion.
On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 11:28 AM, Clint Moore <hydo@me.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Oct 1, 2008, at 11:34 PM, Darren Hobbs wrote:
>>
>> I personally think that Erlang will not be a great fit for web
>> applications without better string and RDBMS support. And I could
>> probably work around the DB stuff. String operations that are taken
>> for granted in other languages (plus efficient representations) are
>> frustratingly absent.
>
> I'm not quite sure to what you are referring to by "string
> operations". I've been working with erlang/yaws/etc. for several
> months now and I haven't found it to be a problem and 99% of the time
> I've been able to get everything done without even touching the regex
> modules. It's different, that's for sure, but I don't think erlang as
> a whole is missing anything. At least, not for what I've been working
> on.
>
> As far as RDBMS support, I've been using mnesia almost exclusively so
> I'm not able to comment on it's usefulness, but I feel compelled to
> add that I think erlydb is one hell of a good start in this area.
> Personally, I'm more thankful of what it does do than I lament what it
> doesn't.
>
>
>
> >
>
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:42 am |
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I think that there are other frameworks that are as difficult to get
up to speed with/throw up incomprehensible errors or are just a pain
in the back to work with. Fortunately, Erlyweb is not one of them.
That is not to say that it is to be encouraged, but I think that
erlyweb is still comparatively pretty young and has got a lot more
coming with time.
But even in this state that it is in, it still delivers a lot of
value. I was once working on a facebook app and having tried Java, RoR
and scala, I gave up in sheer frustration and erlyweb/Brian Fink's
facebook lib saved the day.
So hang in there if you want to benefit from this.
Nii Amon
On Sep 27, 9:09 |
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| wailian |
| Posted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 2:46 am |
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| One of them is the Ugg bailey button boot which has classic and uniquely designed buttons on its body to give that elegant and luxurious look. It has a fantastic look and this includes the Bailey Triplet Boot which has 3 buttons. These boots have a shaft (the upper part of the boot) which can be turned up or turned down depending upon your need. These buttons are both for style or decoration along with being functional or usable as well. |
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. Here is a *really interesting* stack that I came across